East Timor’s President Jose Ramos-Horta was expected today to appear
before the Indonesia-East Timor Truth and Friendship Commission. The
United Nations and human rights bodies object to the commission
because of its plan to offer amnesties to those who co-operate and
DUNN: I think it should be known that Jose Ramos-Horta in the first
instance wanted some sort of international tribunal or some process
that would bring out for the public, for the international community,
the detail of what happened in East Timor, in particular for the
Indonesian political establishment. He was one of those who in the
end, particularly after Xanana decided that he was against any sort
of international tribunal or process to do with the past, Horta
decided well, what can we do. I mean he didn’t have the single
authority to put press it and being a pragmatist, he saw the problem
that it would simply not be possible to get a tribunal through the
Security Council. And I think he was right at the time, because major
powers like the United States and Australia were supporting the new
president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and they were well aware that he
is himself from the military and served in Timor and that it’s hard
to see how he would escape some involvement in such a process. And
that would have a very destabilising impact on Indonesia.
McCARTHY: What are the chief objections that the United Nations and
international human rights bodies have to the tribunal as it stands?
DUNN: Well, I think it’s a tribunal without teeth. It’s a tribunal
where there is no prosecutorial powers and where the people don’t
have to appear before it and when they appear before it, even if they
confess, they’re guaranteed impunity. And that’s what the UN does not
McCARTHY: Dr Ramos-Horta has of course defended the Commission. He
says fostering close ties with Indonesia is really what’s going to
best serve the interests of East Timor’s population. Given the
sensitivity of the issue in Indonesia and the close economic and
strategic relationship between the two countries, is it fair to say
that there is little to be gained from alienating such a close neighbour?
DUNN: Well, this is where I have to say I disagree with the
president, because I think in the long run, it’s not just about what
the Timorese would like and most people would like some sort of –
It’s a bit like Australia, where people want at least the
perpetrators to get up and say I’m sorry, we did this. But I think
there’s something more serious about it. It’s not just about East
Timor. It’s also about the political process in Indonesia. Now
Indonesia is moving towards democracy, but it’s got quite a distance
to go. And one of the big hurdles is of course to reform the
military, so that it can fit into a democratic process. And how can
you reform the military without having a close look at what its been
up to in the past. And what East Timor, what the experience of East
Timor shows us is it’s an exposure of the brutal culture of the military.
McCARTHY: But can it be said that by establishing the truth of the
historical record of what happened, of who perpetrated this, even if
it requires the granting of amnesties to establish that truth, that
will push the Indonesian military towards reform?
DUNN: Yeah, but the problem is that this process isn’t doing that.
The main perpetrators and after all, in the UN system, our focus in
relation to war crimes or crimes against humanity is the commanders,
who gave the orders? It’s not just the small guys who go, are
involved in the killing and that’s where the traces stopped. There
are about 80 Timorese serving long periods of imprisonment for being
part of the militia and part of operations where killing took place.
But there was no single Indonesian officer. And don’t forget the
Indonesian military planned the violence in East Timor. They not only
set up the militia, but they gave it its agenda of violence.
And I think that can only be brought out by a much stricter
tribunal. And this tribunal so far, after all it’s been going for a
long time and it’s really produced nothing. What will be interesting
is to see what comes out of it in this instance, because you know,
for the first time it’s actually sitting in Dili and that’s what’s
interesting, because not only Jose Ramos-Horta, but the prime
minister now Xanana Gusmao are going to appear before it. It may be
useful, but if they make a statement about the truth as they know it,
so far of course, it won’t match what’s been coming from the TNI
generals and that’s the problem. The problem is that if nothing much
comes out of it, it will have the opposite effect. It will actually
distort and virtually provide a historical cover-up of one of the
most tragic episodes in the recent history of South East Asia.